Mary Virginia Luna Apodaca Vigil
- born March 5, 1931
- at home in Salida (321 L St.)
- delivered by Dr. Fuller
Father:
- Bennio Luna
- born April 2, 1899
- in Vallicto, New Mexico
- died 1948
Mother:
- Rachel (Casidos) Luna
- born September 19, 1902
- in San Ildefonso, New Mexico
- died 1974
Brothers and Sisters:
- Rosilie
- Albert
- Charles
- Berlie
- Edward
- George
- Mildred
- Ernie
- Dorothy
- John Francis
- Christine
Children:
- Andrew, born January 7, 1954
- Arlene, born November 3, 1956
- Annette, born November 11, 1959
- Anthony, born August 21, 1962
interviewed by Gwen Perschbacher on September 6, 2003
Gwen Perschbacher: Virginia I’d like for you to tell me the name of your mother, your birth Mother and Father.
Mary Vigil: Rachel (Ruth) Luna and Ben Luna were my parents, my real parents.
Gwen Perschbacher: Ok. I know you had another set of parents. Do you want to tell me about them?
Mary Vigil: Yeah. My, they were my foster parents. They were my Aunt and Uncle. And my Uncle was related to my real mother, they were brother and sister. And they never had children, so I was elected to be their kid.
GP: And what was their name?
MV: Nick Apodaca and Lucy (Cruzita) Apocada.
GP: Ok. And can you tell me where you were born?
MV: I was born at 321 “L” St. in Salida, by Dr. Fuller.
GP: And ah your father’s full name was?
MV: Ben Bennio Luna.
GP: And your mother’s full name?
MV: Was Rachel (Casados) Luna. Rachel.
GP: Alright. And where was your father born?
MV: In El Rito, down by Sitos, New Mexico.
GP: And, ah, your Mother’s birthplace?
MV: Was San Ildefonso, New Mexico. It’s an Indian Pueblo. (Near Santa Fe, New Mexico)
GP: Ok. Can you tell me the name of your brothers and sisters and their birth dates?
MV: Well there was a, er Rosilie, but she, she died, you know, very young I guess. And ah then I had my brother Albert and he died when he was 21. And then my brother Charles and my sister Berlie. And she died when she was 13. And ah, Edward? And then my brother George and then my sister Mildred and my brother Ernie and my sister Dorothy. And then there was a baby, his name was John Francis and he died. Oh, and I forgot Christine.
GP: And, were you born in Salida? Well, you were born in Salida. Did you live, have you lived all your life in Salida?
MV: Yes, I lived ah at, I was born at 321 “L”, and then my Aunt and Uncle adopted me and I moved up the street, up the road apiece at 648 West 3rd. And I live there till…. till we got, till we got married, yeah, in 1953.
GP: Are the houses that you lived in still there?
MV: Mm huh.
GP: Ah, what schools did you attend?
MV: Ah, I went to St. Joseph school for eight years. And then I went to the Salida High School till the 11th grade and then I quit.
GP: And did, where, you went to Longfellow?
MV: No. To St. Joseph’s.
GP: And where was that located?
MV: It was, it was right off, right next to the church, on 5th and what is it,…. “D” Street.
GP: Ah, you said you didn’t know your mother and father’s ah birth and when they were born or when they died, but you’ll get those for me.
MV: Yeah.
GP: I appreciate that. Ah, can you tell me a little bit about your mother and father?
MV: Gee, I don’t know how they, my mother, …… my, my great Aunt adopted my, my real Mother when she was quite young, because they didn’t have children either, her and my grand, my, well great grand Uncle. So they more-or-less raised her. And ah, but my Grandmother was alive and then I don’t know what year, ah she moved from San Ildefanso Indian Pueblo here. And she, she, we all lived in a little village there on 3rd Street you know. It was our house and then my grandparents, my great Aunt and Uncles house and my grandma’s and then my real mother and father lived down below.
GP: So you all lived in the same neighborhood.
MV: Yeah, yeah. Our village.
GP: Well, what, can you describe your parents ah in any way to me, what they wore and how they spoke and what personalities they had.
MV: Well, I didn’t like my real father very much. And, my real Mother and I never got along either, because I was spoiled, I was spoiled rotten by my, my adopted parents, you know, by my, especially my Mother, my Aunt. And that’s who I thought my, my Mother, my real Mother was, you know. I always loved my adopted Mother. She was a good person.
GP: When did you find out that you had been adopted?
MV: I don’t know. You know, we all lived in the same little village there. And ah, I don’t know, I guess it didn’t make much difference to me, I, I you know. I, maybe it was when my Dad died, when I. I don’t know, I really can’t remember. But it never made much of an impression or a difference to me cause they were great parents, they were real good. They were respected, they spoiled me rotten.
GP: Did you, did you know you had brothers and sisters?
MV: Yeah. Yeah. We were all raised together in the same little place, you know. But, ah I would, I would get a new pair of shoes and a new dress, and I would go down there, you know. And they had a whole bunch of kids, so I’d go there showing off, you know and they’d tell me “go home spoiled brat”. So I’d go home and then I’d tell my Mother and my Mother’d come down and raise holy heck with ‘em, you know.
GP: Because they told you to go home?
MV: Because they called me a spoiled-brat. And she said I was not. Ahhh, I had a good childhood.
TONY VIGIL: She still is.
GP: Well, tell me a little bit about your childhood.
MV: Oh, gosh. Ah, I think the, the sun, how is it, rose and, and everything all, you know, like for me anyway. Mother, Mother thought the world of me, I know. And ah my Dad did too. I don’t know, I was just, it was just a nice childhood, you know. I didn’t have a lot of toys, but I had a lot of love, a lot of love. I remember my Dad was working, went to work in California about, oh I think I was 11 or 12, well during the war. And Mother and I were here by ourselves, and oh we’d play games. We’d stick our tongues out at each other and try to grab each other’s tongue. But that was a game, you know. And ah she’d play paper dolls with me and I don’t know, we had a very good relationship. I loved, I loved my foster Mother very much.
GP: Well, what did your Father do before he went to California?
MV: Ahhh, he worked at ah, …. for the WPA, and then he worked in Pando when they were building the Army camp, at Camp Hale, he worked there. And then he went to California, and he didn’t stay there very long. And then he came back and he got on at the railroad and he worked there until, until his death.
GP: What kind of work did he do? Was he a mechanic or was he, did he lay track or what?
MV: I have no idea. I don’t know.
GP: Did your mother ah work outside of the home?
MV: Cleaning houses, you know, for different people. That’s about the only work she ever done.
GP: Do you remember any of the people she cleaned house for?
MV: Ah, Mrs. Snell, from the Snell Lumber Company and ah a Mrs. Parker. You know, I didn’t know here but I remember Mother mentioning her.
GP: There was a Dr. Parker here.
MV: Yeah, I think it was his wife. And ah, I, I don’t know……who else. And then, after my Dad died, she kind of went, you know, kinda went crazy. And then she started working a lot, and then she was working at the bars. She worked at the Victoria Bar for awhile.
GP: How old were you when your Mother, er when your Father died?
MV: When my foster Father died I was 14 years old.
GP: Was that really hard for you?
MV: Yeah.
GP: I mean hard when your Mother……
MV: When my Mother died, Oh when my Mother was drinking and all that?. Yes, yes. I was more-or-less the Mother and she was the “kid”, yeah. But, like I said, she was a good person, she loved me very much, you know., and she’d do anything for me.
GP: Did you go to the Victoria Bar when she was working there?
MV: No. No. Never did. Uh, uh. No, she done her thing, you know, her way, and I, I never did. I never approved of it, but there was nothing I could do, you know.
GP: Ah, where…… well I already asked you that. Ah, can you remember your first childhood memory? And I was curious about the game you played where, with the tongue. Was that a common game or was that one with just with the family.
MV: It was just me and her I guess. Yeah, yeah. We were bored, and we didn’t have TV or anything, so we had to improvise. But she played paper dolls with me. And ah, I don’t know what the, the idea of the game was, but I remember it was fun, you know. Cause I always tried to beat her, you know. And then we used to go next door to my granddad’s house a lot. And ah they had Poker games at night. They used to play for, for Pinon nuts, you know. They’d pick a lot of Pinon nuts. Everybody had a big can of Pinon nuts and ah we’d go over to grandma’s house and we’d play Poker for Pinon nuts. We’d play till 11 or 12 0’clock at night and then we’d go home.
GP: Did you eat the Pinon nuts while you were there or….?
MV: Yeah, yeah. A lot of times we did, you know. That was another one of our favorite pastimes was going in the fall to pick, when there was a crop of Pinon nuts, we’d go out and pick, pick the nuts and it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that. I still do.
GP: Did the children, did the children play Poker with the adults, or was it set where the children play with other children?
MV: No. I was the only kid there, cause Mother was the only, you know. And my grandmother, my two grandmothers and there was a grand… an Uncle that was living with my grandmother and she would come and they would come next door. And there was the ah people next door, you know, the Luceros. The old man and the……….
GP: Do you remember what their names were?
MV: Her name was Elisaida Lucero and my ah, and his name was Frank, Elisaida's father-in-law.
MV: No, Ramon Lucero never, he never played. It was Frank, the Dad, Mr,….Mrs. ah Lucero’s Father-in-Law, used to come over and we’d all play. And they each had a big can of Pinon nuts and they’d leave them over at my grandmother’s on the window. And then the next night they’d come and then they’d, they’d bet a little glass of Pinon nuts per, you know. And, and it was a lot of fun. It was only, you know just to spend an evening. They never had no TV.
GP: And did you play with any kids in the neighborhood or did you mostly just stay in with your Mother?
MV: No I had a girlfriend that lived down the street. Her name was Dolores Guth And she was Willie and Jo Drominick’s niece. And ah I used to go over there, and you know, her and I would go to school together and we were real good friends. But she’s the only one that I can remember that I, and oh, I had other friends, you know, Susanne Aragon and ah a lot of the kids that lived in the neighborhood. We’d play kick the can, and we’d play run-sheep-run and hide-and-seek.
GP: Now what’s run-sheep-run?
MV: Run-sheep-run. Didn’t you ever play run-sheep run?
GP: Well, I, tell me about it.
MV: Well, we used to, some guy was “it” and then the rest of the, the rest of the kids would go out and hide. There’d be two people, the one that was there and then the main guy I guess. And ah, and ah, so this one person would go out looking for everybody and if, you know, if he was pretty close to the, to the thing, they’d say “run-sheep-run” and they’d run in and get in free, see. So that was the name, that was the game. But we used to spend a lot of time, in the evenings in the summer playing that.
GP: Where did you play it? Did you play it in the street?
MV: Yeah, yeah. We didn’t have, yeah, or up on the sandbanks. We used to play up on the sandbanks. There was, the courthouse building wasn’t there, or the jail that’s there now. It was all, you know, a bunch of sandbanks and we used to play in there all the time.
GP: And that was on 3rd St., West 3rd St.
MV: Uh huh.
GP: Can you give me some early childhood memories besides the poker games and things that you said. Ah, like ah special celebrations you had?
MV: Oh, god, baptisms were real special, you know. When you got baptized Ah, new babies, down the street. Of course my real parents were always having babies, so. They always, they always had a baptism and they had cookies and candy, which we never had a lot of, you know, and pop. That was a real treat. And they used to buy bottles of pop in, not like in six packs, but different kinds like chocolate and ah orange crush and lime, lemon-lime and stuff like that, which we never had all the time. And they would leave the bottles out and leave glasses and, and then people would get up and go visiting the, the people that got their kid baptized. And they’d come to the table and they’d go around and eat a cookie and they’d have candy or they’d have another glass of pop, you know.
GP: And that was, was that after the baptism in the church?
MV: Uh, huh.
GP: And did all, who all went to the baptism and who came to the home?
MV: Well, they invited all the, the, their friends, you know, and the people that were the God-Parents and their families. And just had a little get-together. It was kinda nice, you know. You kinda looked forward to those things.
GP: I notice you said bottles of pop. They didn’t have canned pop then, right?
MV: No, Huh uh. But I remember because there was ah chocolate pop, you know. And ah the orange I remember because the bottles then with the little limes. But you, you never got a whole bottle of pop, you know. You never did. That was a no-no. The kids were real polite and would go around the table and pour their little glasses.
TV: That’s when kids had manners.
GP: Were the cookies homemade?
MV: No, bought, bought. Store-bought. Yeah, it was a treat, you know. It was a real treat, cause we never had all that stuff.
GP: And so baptisms were real special. What, what other things can you think was really special in your childhood?
MV: That’s about all I can remember.
GP: I see. Can you remember any town celebrations?
MV: Oh, The Days of ’49. But that was way, way after I was already older, you know. That was like the boat race, but it was called The Days of ’49, and people would dress in ah in old fashioned clothes. My Mother and Dad one time rode in the stage coach, you know.
GP: Do you remember what year that was?
MV: 40 something, but I can’t remember exactly. I don’t remember. But, my Dad was a real stickler for stuff, you know.
GP: He liked to dress up?
MV: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. On Sundays he wore a suit and tie and went to church every Sunday. I hated to go to church.
GP: What, why did you hate to go to church?
MV: I don’t know. I just did. I remember one Sunday, I, I didn’t want to go, and he, we always had to go, I knew I had to go, but I didn’t. So it took me forever to get ready and everything. Told him “I don’t have my shoes”, an he grabbed me, shoes and all and threw me in the car and off we went to church, put my shoes on in the car.
GP: Were, were your parents strict disciplinarians?
MV: Pshhhh. No. Especially my Mom. My Dad, my Dad whacked me twice, I think, that I, you know, that I can remember he spanked me. And my Mom and him practically got a divorce over that too. But, but ah my Mom spoiled me rotten, but she was a good Mother.
GP: Do you know why he whacked you two times?
MV: I probably deserved it. No, I don’t remember
GP: Well tell me a little bit about school.
MV: Oh, School, oh I hated school.
GP: Oh, really, and why was that?
MV: I don’t know. I jut didn’t like to go I guess. I went to the, I went to kindergarten for oh just a little bit. Was it McCray or Longfellow, they had like a kindergarten, I think one day. And then, and then, they had kindergarten in ah, in the Jr. High. And I went there, me and Susan and ah Lester, gosh, they lived, oh, Ostrem. The three of us they used to pick us up in a little car, a Model “A”, and take us to the school, and they, you know. And half a day and then we’d go home. And the only thing I remember about, about that kindergarten was laying down, take a nap and drinking orange juice, you know. We never had orange juice at our house. And we’d have a little glass of orange juice. That was the highlight of the, of the schooling, I guess. I don’t think I ever learned anything.
GP: Was that the old ah Kessner Jr. High?
MV: Yes.
GP: That... is that what 9th or 8th.?
TV: That would be 8th St.
GP: And I didn’t realize there had ever been a kindergarten there. But did you go, ah how old were you when you started?
MV: Must have been 5 or 6; no 5 I guess, yeah. Because then I went to school at St. Joseph’s for, for eight years.
GP: And did you like school at St. Joseph’s?
MV: Not really, but my Dad was a stickler for education. So, I had to go. And ah, and then when he died, when I was a Freshman, I think. I went for four years, but I just went whenever I felt like it. Mother never, never forced me to go, or, you know, never took a real interest in things.
GP: Were you still in Catholic school in High School or did you go to the Salida High?
MV: No, I went to Salida High, yeah. They never had a High School in St. Joseph’s. They just went to the 8th grade and from there you got to go to, to High School.
GP: Did they have any special graduation ceremony?
MV: Oh yeah, year. I have a picture of me when I graduated from, from, from St. Joseph’s. And I have my diploma from St. Joseph’s. But, ah…….
GP: And did you quit High School because you didn’t like school, or did you get married, or……?
MV: No, I just, I hated, well I, I started my ah Freshman year kinda late, you know, because my Dad had died, and so I, when I, I was way behind and I never did, eleventh grade I mean, and ah I got way behind, so I just decided to quit. And my Mother, she was too busy running downtown and stuff. She was heartbroken and everything, and she didn’t care. And so she just let me do my thing, you know.
GP: So what, what did you do when you weren’t in school?
MV: When I wasn’t in school? Oh, walked the streets. Went to Lewis’s and had pop.
GP: Now what, what was Lewis’s?
MV: Oh, it was a candy kitchen. They had, they had two different, two different ah, ah candy kitchens. Lewis’s candy kitchen and the Greeks. The Greeks was down there where ah the dentist’s office is now.
GP: Ah…..on Church, on “F” St.?
MV: Where Jones has his.. uh huh. And that that was strictly for the Anglos and the Greeks and some of the Italians. And then the, Lewis’s was a mixture of the “Bohunks”, the Mexicans, and ah, some Anglos I guess and the Italians, you know. But there was different little groups, you know.
GP: And where was it located?
MV: It was right next to… you know where the bank is? The bank was in the corner and then there was Lewis’s.
GP: Ah, you mean the bank on “F” street? And it was, was it on the same side of the street as the bank?
MV: Yeah, yeah. Right, the bank was right in the corner and Lewis’s was right next door.
GP: So it’s not there anymore, then.
MV: No, no, no.
GP: That’s interesting. Well who ran Lewis’s then?
MV: Mr. and Mrs. Lewis.
GP: And were they Anglo, or?
MV: Yeah, yeah, they were Anglo, yeah And it was real neat, cause you, and on Friday night, or Saturday nights, or, yeah Saturday, well we’d go in there and sit all day with one Coke and he never cared, you know, just hung out there, And ah he was a nice old man, you know. And ah he’s ah, is she, Emily, is she still alive?
TV: you mean Emily Williams?
MV: That was their daughter and she worked there. But it was a real nice hang out, you know. You go in there and buy a Coke for a dime or a nickel and stay in there all day, you know. They didn’t care.
GP: So who hung out there with you, the other kids that dropped out of school, or, older kids?
MV: Well, mostly Mexican kids, Italians, and I don’t know, I guess that’s all. Well, no, there was a lot of kids that weren’t that were in school, but then right after school that’s where they’d go, you know.
GP: But, it sounds like there was some discrimination then. Can you tell me a little bit about that; In school or in church?
MV: Ohhh, yeah. Not in school. I don’t remember discrimination in school, do you? Do you?
TV: Yep.
MV: And ah, in church, no. And ah, cause I went to the Catholic school for eight years. But ah, Givens’s, these people Givens’s came into town and they bought Lewis’s Candy Kitchen. And if you were Mexican they wouldn’t serve you, in Lewis’s.
GP: Oh really? So, about what year was that?
TV: About ’46, ’47.
MV: Uh huh. Cause we went, Dad told us, you know, so we used to hang out there. So we went in there one time and we sat there, and we sat there, and we sat there and they never waited on us. So, so we finally left.
GP: They never said anything?
MV: They never, but, ah they never waited on you. Uh huh. And where else: at the swimming pool was a lot of discrimination. I never did go swimming anyway, but ah they wouldn’t let you swim if you were a Mexican. Or they’d let, and then they made a thing that you could, they could swim on the weekend or Friday or something.
TV: The day before they cleaned the pool, whatever day that was.
MV: Yeah, and then they’d clean the pool after. And then, the other kids could go, you know, the rest of the week, and Mexicans could go just on a certain day. And, yeah, there was a lot of discrimination in this stupid town.
GP: And when, when do you feel that changed? Or do you feel it has changed?
MV: Oh it has, I think. Ah, I don’t know, in the late ‘40’s, early ‘50’s.
TV: After all the guys started coming from the War, it changed, cause they started raising hell.
GP: Ok. I should have told you that Virginia’s husband Tony is ah here at the table, and I’m going to interview him later, but that’s who the other voice is.
Ah, alright, ah, what kind of clothes did you wear to school?
MV: Oh, I wore the best. I wore the, I was in the trend. I, I never went without. You know, you know Mother always, I always had the skirt with the poodle on it and the chain. And, any styles, you know, I always got, I always dressed pretty good.
GP: Whatever was in fashion you wore.
MV: You’re darn right.
GP: And when you said poodle, was that, what kind of a…….
MV: A poodle skirt.
GP: Tell me about that.
MV: Oh, there were, they were like a, ah round skirt and then they had a poodle on the side and they had a, ah it had a chain from your, from your waist down, you know, on the little poodle, like a little collar. That was the main thing, you know. Not everybody had ‘em, you know, but Virginia always had the best. So, but……
GP: What about hats. Did you wear hats?
MV: Oh yeah. We always, you know, for church we wore hats, yeah. Always had something to match everything else, you know.
GP: How did the church change while you were growing up, or did it?
MV: Oh yes.
GP: Uh huh. Can you tell me about that?
MV: Well before a lot of people could, were not allowed to go up on the alter and take part in any of the church, of the thing, you know. It was a, from the railing on was a Holy place and ah, you were very devout when you went in there, you kept quiet. And, it, it was entirely different than what it is today. Nowadays, everybody, you know, reads and does everything, they all partake in it, you know, and they never did before. You went in, were kinda devout, you know, and prayed to yourself. So, it, it’s changed quite a bit.
GP: Was there any religious discrimination that you were aware of?
MV: No. I don’t think so.
GP: And what about the service, were they in Latin when you were a child?
MV: Yeah. Uh huh. Everything was in, in Latin.
GP: Did you understand it?
MV: No. But you know, you always had a Missal that had ah the, the reading in English and one in Latin and followed you know, whatever the Priest, but you knew what was going on with the English, you know. I have a Missal.
GP: Oh really. And you’re from a Hispanic background basically? And, did they ever have services in Spanish?
MV: Ah, they did. They used to bring in Missionaries, you know and they would have it. A Rosary usually. I don’t remember they would say Mass in, in Spanish. I don’t remember. My, my Great Uncle, he was quite a historian on all this stuff, you know. And ah, fact is he used to write plays and stuff.
GP: Oh, really. For local use or… ?
MV: No, I think when they lived in Alamosa they used to put on a lot of Passion Plays and all kinds of stuff, you know. And he tried it here, but it didn’t pan out for him. He was quite a character, Grandpa. He was a Great Uncle, but I, we called him Grandpa.
GP: Oh, ok. What was his name?
MV: Louis Trujillo. And, he was married to my, my Grandmother’s sister, Evarista Trujillo. And we were raised right there, you know, together. And he was really nice….fact is he was custodian at the, at the, at the church and ah, the school, at St. Joseph’s.
GP: At St. Joseph’s church and school.
MV: Yeah, uh huh, for quite a while.
GP: Ah, can you tell me, you told me you went in some kind of a car to school when you were in kindergarten.
MV: Yeah, a little Model A. Yeah, I don’t know who these two, two guys used to pick us up, Suzanne and I, and other kids probably, I don’t remember. Suzanne and I were the only two I remember.
GP: Well do you know was this a private thing, or did the school furnish it, do you know that?
MV: Well, I think maybe the county, you know, ah furnished it, you know. I don’t know.
GP: Did you, did your parents have a car?
MV: Ah…yeah, but not till real, real…..the car that we, we traveled in was my real parents. Ah, they had a, a Willis, a little Willis, a gray and blue Willis, and they used to take….oh, and then my Dad had a, a car, but he cut the back end and made a truck out of it. And we’d all go on picnics up to Shirley Creek in back of this truck, you know, like we’d look like ah, like these migrant workers.
GP: Now where is ah Shirley Creek?
MV: Shirley Creek, over going towards O’Haver (?)
TV: Yeah, near Mears Junction, toward O’Haver (?)
GP: Did you catch any fish, or did you go to fish?
MV: No, I just went to eat, you know, picnic. But, but ah I remember my Dad used to take the whole, you know, the whole bunch in, in the little village there. And we’d all go out there, Grandpa and Mother. My Mother got lost one time, yeah, out there. And ah, she went down the wrong creek or somethin and she was lost. And, oh my god I cried. I was little, you know. And I cried cause she was lost. And my Dad was frantic he was lookin. My Grandpa was lookin. Everybody was lookin for her, and couldn’t find her. And we’d go around, “ooooo”, “ooooo” (calling her) nothin, you know, and finally we heard a “ooooo” back, and it was my Mom and she was all dry, you know. But, and I think that’s the last time we went fishin up there. We never went again. But we used to go over there quite a bit.
GP: Did you father work five days a week, or did he work longer hours, do you remember?
MV: No, he worked five days, I guess.
GP: Ah, did you belong to any clubs or organizations?
MV: They belonged to, my Dad belonged to a club named ah Los Latis. Don’t ask me what that means, but that was a Spanish Club. And then they had a Spanish /American club that he belonged to at one time. I think that’s it.
GP: And were they both, they both here in Salida?
MV: Yeah.
GP: And was the, were they for men and women or were they just for men?
MV: No, no, they were for the whole family.
GP: And do you know what kind of activities they had
MV: No. They had dances and picnics and stuff like that, but I don’t remember what, you know……
GP: Just get-togethers mostly.
MV: Yeah, yeah. I guess, yeah.
GP: Ah, where did they have the dances?
MV: At the Crutcher Hall.
GP: And where’s that?
MV: That was on top of ah where, what the heck is there now?…. There’s no building now up there..
TV: Ah, the Chung Travel Agency over there on 2nd street…. the eye doctor's there too.
GP: Oh where Dr. ah near Dr. Lund on “G” St., then, is that 2nd and “G”?
MV: Yeah, they had a two story building there.
GP: Oh, and that’s where you had the dances?
MV: Uh huh.
GP: I never heard of it. Now what did you call it?
MV: The Crutcher, Crutcher Hall.
GP: Do you remember any ah fires, or any accidents in Salida that not everybody would know about, or maybe they did at the time, but…..?
MV: One day my Grandmother was baking bread outside, in a ordinal, a little ordinal, she used to use, you know.
GP: In a what?
MV: An orono. It was a oven. And it was a round thing made out of adobe and it was hollow inside. And my Dad had built, built it for her. And she used to bake bread in there, you know all the time. And one day she was baking bread, out, outside, and she was baking bread and she saw this airplane go down over where ah,…. Costello’s Motel you know the crossroads or what the heck is that ah, going out towards Bueny (Buena Vista), Backroads or what the heck is the name of that now?
GP: Oh, ah, is it where that restaurant is now closed?
MV: Yeah, yeah
GP: Ok. Kings Crossing…..
MV: No. No. No. No. Right here.
TV: That’s further out of town. It used to be Costello’s and then it changed to Sands.
MV: On 3RD and what is it …Sands… ok?
GP: Oh, ok. alright.
MV: And ah, My grandmother was baking bread and she saw this airplane go down, or crash down. I don’t know if it killed the people or not.
TV: It killed the guy. It was just a single guy.
MV: But that’s the only thing that I remember.
GP: Do you know what year that might have been? Was it before the war, during the war, after the war?
MV: Before?
TV: Yeah. I remember when it happened and I was pretty young, so it was before the war.
GP: And you’re talking about the Sands, where all the geese go, kinda in that area?
MV: Yeah, yeah.
GP: Ok. Oh, and ah what ah wasn’t there a place people used to go to get water, down in that area? What can you tell me about that?
MV: Yeah, year. A little stream. It’s still there I guess. The water, they turned it off or something.
Ah, it’s like, ah…where in the heck is it ah….like going over towards ah… you know where the, the lake is, and then the road that goes……
GP: Toward Smelter town?
MV: Yeah, not, not across the bridge, but the one before the bridge there’s a little, little road there, they have it closed now, but it’s right in there, right in there we used to go get water all the time.
GP: And did you have a well or did you have city plumbing?
MV: No, no we had, we had city plumbing, yeah.
GP: Why did you go get that water, do you remember?
MV: Well, because Ben liked, it tasted better he said. My sister got poison Ivy there.
GP: Oh, and how was that treated?
MV: Ahhh, not… she died.
GP: Oh really?
MV: Yeah, she got Leukemia I think, or something, you know with it, and then she died. She was just 13.
GP: But it started with ah….
MV: Yeah, oh she was all, all ah over…….
GP: Rash?
MV: Yeah, not rash, like ah blisters.
GP: Blisters, and itching, I bet.
MV: Oh yeah.
GP: Well, tell me a little bit more about ah, did your Mother just bake bread outside, or did she bake other things outside?
MV: My Grandmother. My mother never baked bread outside. My Grandmother did. My little Grandma did.
GP: Well, tell me a little bit about your diet. What kinds of things did you eat?
MV: We ate a lot of ah calidito
GP: And what is that?
MV: It’s a ground steak and potatoes and onions fried and then you put flour, brown the flour and you put water. That makes calidito. It’s like a little stew, yeah. We used to eat a lot of that. Mother used to make really good…..
GP: What about for breakfast, what kind of things did you eat?
MV: Ah, cornflakes, and, and ah oatmeal, and stuff, eggs, bacon, yeah. And sometimes chili and tortillas went with the eggs.
GP: That’s what you liked?
MV: Yeah. Well, you, you know, we had that a lot, and you know, chili. My mother was a real chili eater. She loved it. And green chili, you know, this time of the year. And oh her and my Dad would fight, because she got sick, you know, every time she ate green chili, she got a tummy ache and she got sick. And he’d say, “eat, eat, eat green chili, go ahead, eat green chili” he tell her, you know. They’d argue over it, you know, he never got mad, real mad.
GP: But she got sick from it then she didn’t want to eat it, right?
MV: Yeah, she wanted to but she wouldn’t, or she would even if it made her sick. Yeah, she didn’t care. But my Dad tell her, “ no, no, no don’t tell me about your stomach” you know. And she’d always have ah, oh, always holden her tummy, you know, and he’d tell her, “I don’t want to hear bout your tummy” you know.
GP: Did your parents have a garden?
MV: Ah… Mother used to like to garden, yeah She had a little place there where, you know she’d have…mostly carrots, I think. I don’t know, not very much, you know.
GP: Did she do any canning?
MV: Oh, yeah, she canned tomatoes and she canned peaches and pears and, and she made chow-chow. And I guess that’s all, …and pickles.
GP: And did you help her?
MV: Yeah, I used to peel the, the peaches and stuff.
GP: Did you, did you have any chores you needed to do after school?
MV: No, I hated to do dishes. Oh, god, but that was my job, and I hated it. And I’d always get sick, I’d faint and everything, so I wouldn’t have to, so I wouldn’t have to do the dishes. But I always ended up doing the dishes.
GP: Did you have to do the dishes after you came to?
MV: My Dad was a real stickler there and he made me do stuff I didn’t like to do.
GP: Well, tell me how you and Tony met.
MV: Oh, god. The first time I saw Tony was for orientation, 9th grade orientation, you know, in High School. And I, I can remember it like it was today. We were going up the stairs and I saw this guy over by the lockers. Wow, I thought, what a hunk. That’s mine. But, that’s about it, he never asked me out or anything. I’d stand at Mr. Sloan’s window and watch him walk another girl home, my heart breaking. And, then ah, ah there was going to be ah dance, you know, at the school. And, and, oh I wanted to go so bad with him you know. And oh, my girlfriend and I went to church and we lit candles and we prayed. And that he’d ask me. And then we were in study hall, and he asked ah this other girl that was sitting right in front of me to go to the dance, and I thought I was gonna die. And I got lice, on top of it all. Yeah. This girl borrowed my comb and she, you could see ‘em on her head, you know. And she took my comb, and I never thought about it. And ah anyway, the the night of the dance, man I was loaded. A good thing I didn’t have a date.
GP: Well, so where did the romance go from him liking someone else to liking you?
MV: I don’t know.
GP: When was your first date, do you remember?
MV: It was a blind date. Your sister huh? in-law ah arranged it. Angie. She ah, she was going out with Joe and so she ah asked him, you know, if he’d take me. They came down from New Mexico for Thanksgiving, I think it was, huh?. And so, I went out with him and we went to, to the Country Club and we parked outside. We didn’t go in, we stayed out there and talked. It was a very short date, and very disappointing.
GP: Well, tell me about the Country Club, where, where was it located?
MV: Oh, out on Smelter? It wasn’t here when you guys moved here?
GP: I guess so. Ah, you go clear through Smelter Town and then it’d be on the right hand side of the road?
MV: Yeah. Yeah. And then there was a Silver Club too, further up. Yeah, but anyway, a dance club and we went out there. And, stopped out there I guess, huh, we didn’t even go in and dance.
GP: Was it mostly kids, or was it adults too?
MV: Yeah. No, it was mostly kids, huh?
TV: It was “3.2”.
GP: A “3.2” place?
MV: Yeah, uh huh. And then the Del Rio was THE place, you know. That was my sixth home.
GP: On lower “F” street?
MV: No, no, out on the highway.
\
GP: Now where was it located?
MV: You know where Four Seasons is?
GP: Yes.
MV: Right there. It was a nice big dance hall. And, John Davis ran it. And he was a mean old man, you know. He’d get mad and he’d take out a gun, “alright everybody go home” and everbody’d scatter, they’d go. But it was, it was a real nice place.
GP: When, when was it, ah how long did it last out there? What year did it close? Do you have any idea how long it was open?
MV: In the 40’s huh?. All during the 40’s.
TV: And the 50’s. Till ah, till Armstrong bought it, whenever that was.
GP: Did they have bands or did they have………
MV: Yeah, they’d bring bands from out of town. And, Chris Trujillo used to play there, you know. Chris and, and ah Andrew and Julius, those three, and then a brother-in-law, or his, his brother I guess, Nester. And they used to play, you know. And, oh, god, that was THE place, you know. I practically lived there.
GP: So you danced a lot?
MV: Oh god, yes. Ohhhh, yes.
GP: What kind of dances did you do?
MV: Oh, I don’t know, every kind I guess. Yeah, oh a lot of jitter-bug. Yeah. And ah I was the one they could throw around so, cause I was real small, you know. So I got to dance a lot. So, I had, I had a good time.
GP: So from the, from the dance, from the first dance you went with Tony, where you never danced, then where did the dating go from there?
MV: I don’t know. It’s been such a long time.
GP: Did you, did you continue to see each other?
TV: I wasn’t living here.
MV: No, he was living in New Mexico.
GP: Oh. Oh.
MV: The fact is I went to New Mexico to fiestas, and kinda looked him up. And we went out, we went to a movie. He took me to a movie. I don’t remember the movie. But anyway, just my girlfriend and I went to Santa Fe to fiestas. And, I don’t know, just, we ended up together some way or another.
GP: And when were you married?
MV: In……’53? And then he kept, he went to the service. And then he came back. When he came back, we were at the Del Rio. And he was ah, him and his cousin were sitting there and I thought, “it’s now or never”. So, he was sitting at the bar and I went over, “Hi, Tony”, and he bit, you know. And I said “I don’t feel very well, would you take me out”, so he took me out. He took me out to the car and we smooched, and that was it.
GP: And you were married in what year, did you say?
MV: In ’53…..was it in “53.? I thought it was in ’51. Ok, ’53 I guess.
GP: And how, you were married here in Salida?
MV: No, we went to Taos, New Mexico and got married.
GP: Oh, was that you didn’t have to be so old, or did you have to………?
TV: We had a blood test.
MV: Yeah, yeah and so we went with this other couple, and I told him, we’ll just go and, and tell ‘em we’ve been married a long time, cause I was pregnant. Anyway, he says, well, you know, we’ll ah we’ll tell ‘em, we’ve been married a long time, and they don’t know anyway, cause we’re just gonna go, and we’re right with this other couple. But we didn’t, they know we were gonna get married. The other couple were supposed to get married. So they, they got married, and we both got married. In the jail.
GP: In the jail. How’s come in jail?
MV: Uh huh. Cause it was 4th of July and the Judge was ah……
TV: The, the JD had his office in the jail.
MV: So there we were standing, with bars behind us while we were taking our vows
GP: Did the other couple live in Salida?
MV: Yeah.
GP: Do they still live here?
MV: No. Ah fact is, he died and she remarried again. Yeah.
GP: So how many children did you have?
MV: Five. Yeah, I lost, I had Andrew and Arlene and Anthony that died, and ah, and Annette, and then we named the young one Anthony too.
GP: Well, did, can you tell me their birthdates?
MV: Oh no. Did you have to ask me…….
GP: Well, Andrew was the oldest right?
MV: Yeah, and he was born in ………
TV: I’ve got it written…….
MV: He’s got it writ, writ……
GP: Now, you said you lost a baby. Was that your last baby?
MV: No that, that was the middle one. Yeah, I had a boy, girl, boy, girl, boy. And the middle one, his name was Anthony too. And he weighed 11 pounds. He was small. He strangled on the umbilical cord.
GP: Oh. And who was your doctor? Did you have all your babies in the hospital, or here in Salida?
MV: Yeah with Dr. Leonardi. What would I have done without ol' Leo. Yeah, poor Leo. He was a nice man. One time little Anthony had a really bad sore throat, you know. And I knew that’s what he had, was his tonsillitis. So I called him up at the office, and I told him, you know, Anthony, little Anthony’s real sick, I said. And he’s got a high fever and ah I said I know it’s tonsillitis, I said, could you call the drug store and ah get him a prescription, and then I’ll ah. He said ah well bring him down. And I said, I can’t, I said, I have a house full of kids, you know. And, and I said I just can’t bring him down right now. Well either bring him down or not. And I said, well, I can’t, you know. And he said, well either you want the treatment or you don’t. CLICK: hung up on me. So I thought, I told Anthony when he came home from work, would you take Anthony to the doctor? So he did, and Leonardi said “tell your wife I’m awfully sorry that I was ill. She was right, you know, that’s what’s wrong with him”. I said, no, that’s, he wanted the money, that’s what he wanted, I knew what was wrong with him.
GP: So where, where did you first live after you were married?
MV: On 3rd St. at my Mother’s house. We lived there for ten years. And then we found…….
GP: Did you live with your Mother or was she dead by then?
MV: No, no. She ah, she was living with this man, and with John. And she’d go over to Saguache and stay with him and then she’d come, then they’d get in a fight and then she’d come back. And eventually when she, when they, when we lived here, she, she married him here. They got married.
GP: So when did you move from your place over there to here? And what year was that?
MV: Yeah. Um huh. It was ’63 wasn’t it?
GP: To “F” street.
MV: Um huh.
GP: And you have the childrens birthdates?
MV: Ohhh, get the, getting in my eye magnifying glass.
GP: Oh, I forgot, I’m sorry.
MV: Ohhhhh….. you don’t want my birthdate do you?
GP: Uh huh, I do.
MV: Oh, you do? Mine is March the 5th, 1931 and Anthony’s is May the 15th, 1928. And Andrews is……shoot…..
GP: Would you, would you like Tony to read those for you? Would it be easier?
MV: Yeah, I, I don’t know what you wrote there. Andrews……. January, I couldn’t read it, January , no, January the……7th……
TV: You can’t read my writing? January the 7th, of 1954, Andrew, Andrew. And Arlene was ah November the 3rd of 1956.
MV: Give me their full names would you Tony?
TV: Oh, that’s Andrew Nicholas Vigil, that was in January ah the 7th of 1954 Arlene Kay Vigil was November the 3rd, l956. Her name now is Rogers, she got married. And Annette Marie Vigil, November the 12th, 1959. An ah she’s an Apple now, her last name. And Anthony Gilbert Vigil, Jr., ah August 21st, of 1962.
GP: And then you had a baby after that?
MV: No, no. In-between.
GP: In-between, that’s right.
TV: In-between Arlene and ah…….
MV: In March, in March. I can’t remember what year……..
TV: Was it March? I can’t remember. It would’ve been two years after Arlene in ’54, ‘55. No. More like ’57 or ’58 I think.
GP: Can you tell me a little bit about your children, when they went to school?
MV: Yeah. Arlene went, no. Andrew went to school, he was, ah Mrs. Argys was his kindergarten teacher. He went to kindergarten. And ah, an I mean you know, they went to go through all the grades and had all the teachers. I can’t even remember who the teachers are.
GP: They went to Longfellow?
MV: Yeah. Uh huh. And ah, and then ah Arlene too, she had ah, (gee my mind is so bad, Gwen) ah Arlene. Let me see, Andy went to the 12th grade but he had different teachers. Mrs. Miller was one of his favorite teachers. And ah, they were real good to him cause he had the Diabetes. He caught Diabetes sometime. And they were real good. Mrs. Cable. And then ah Arlene had Mrs. Cable. And ah they had Mrs. Held, but I guess she went to, to Longfellow. And she, who was her, oh, Mrs. Cable was her kindergarten teacher. And ah then all the other teachers, but I can’t remember who, you know. Mrs. McQueen was her favorite teacher. And she’s still our favorite person. She’s such a nice person. And ah, Anthony too, he went to Longfellow. And he went to kindergarten with Mrs. Cable. And ah I don’t know who his favorite teacher. In high school I know Ed Lambert was his, one of his favorite teachers They were real good friends.
GP: Did you have a favorite teacher?
MV: Sister Bernadine was one of my favorite Nun’s there. Sister Mary. And ah, I guess that’s all. I went to Longfellow for a day, I think, and I didn’t like it, so I quit. But, I was little, you know so Mother didn’t make me go.
GP: Was that kindergarten or was that first?
MV: Yeah, yeah. But I don’t remember. Ah, no I went to first grade, and Mrs. Smith…. you know Rick Smith the, that worked at the post office…. his Mother, she’s was such a nice person, you know. But ah, I, I didn’t stay in first grade very long, or kindergarten or whatever it was. But I remember her, she was very nice.
GP: And then you, did you go to St. Joe’s right away?
MV: Yeah, yeah. Then after that I went to St. Joe’s. Not right away, no.
GP: Could you tell me anything about the businesses you remember downtown?
MV: Oh my god. Argys' Mercantile.
GP: And where was that located?
MV: Down on lower “F”, on the 200 block, I guess huh….100 block.
GP: Tell me a little bit about a mercantile store. You don’t hear about those anymore.
MV: Oh, they’re like a grocery store, is what it was, you know. And ah we, we had ah credit there so we could go in there and do whatever. And he was a nice old man.
GP: Now what, which Argys was that?
MV: Ted. Ah Ted Sr. Young Ted’s Dad. And ah let’s see what other businesses were there? Ah Ben’s Grocery, that was up the street by ah… right next to Lallier's, right in there, wasn’t it?
TV: In the next block, where Tuttle's used to be.
MV: Oh, was it? Ok, alright. And ah the Safeway store was right there where the bookstore is now, you know, in the corner.
TV: That was across from Lallier's.
GP: Across from Lallier's.
MV: Yeah. And the Woolworth store, where the big Emporium is, or whatever the heck it is, that was a Woolworth. And, ah…..
GP: One of those was on “F” St. and one was on “F” and 2nd, then.
MV: Yeah. And ah, ah City Market was Bonds…..wasn’t it Bonds for awhile? You know where the City Market, where the Bank……. that……..
GP: On “G” and 2nd, West 2nd.
MV: Mmm huh. And then there was Harvey’s, right across the street where the, there’s a medical building or some kind of ah, the eye person there. Right across the street from Safeway.
GP: Oh where Dr. Lund’s office is now?
MV: Yeah, yeah. There was a Harvey’s, used to be, it was a little grocery store too. And ah, I think that’s all the town wasn’t there? Huh.
TV: There was A Star Market.
MV: Oh, that’s right, up the street, right next to the, shoot, the corner there, Koster's, remember Koster's building right next…….
TV: No, no no. On first street. On first street, right where ah Gambles has their warehouse…
GP: Oh, ok. So, that, that was Sky Market?
TV: No. Star.
GP: Star Market. And it would have been between “F “ and “E” on ah 1st Street. Do you know who ran that?
TV: Seems to me like ah,… oh, what’s his name…Bill Lotshaw… ah Darrell…….
MV: Lotshaw (?)
TV: Lotsaw, seems to me like they ran it. I’m not sure.
GP: The Lotshaw’s – Lotshaw’s.
TV: Well there was Costello’s, there was all kinds of stores. Liquor stores ah beer joints. One of every two buildings was a liquor store or beer joint. Must have been 14 of them in town.
GP: When I get to you I want more details on that. Ah, Virginia, what about national events that you remember, or epidemics, ah during your lifetime.
MV: I remember when the war started. We were living in Pueblo.
GP: Word War II?
MV: Yeah. And ah, we were living in Pueblo and ah got up in the morning and went to school,… or, no, I guess it was on a Sunday, I wasn’t in school. But anyway, we got up, we were living in Pueblo at the time, and ah got up and heard all these newspaper boys, hollering, you know, “world war started”, you know, and “Pearl Harbor bombed” and so it was kind of a sad time, you know. But, that’s the only thing I remember, that was, of any, you know, big thing around here.
GP: How, how did it affect your life? Did it, or did it affect your life very much?
MV: Not really. Huh uh. Well, I was how old, 14, 15? So, it didn’t, no.
GP: Do you remember any epidemics?
MV: The Polio. They had, you know, had to had to watch yourself with everything and hardly went, couldn’t go to a lot of places where they gathered, because there was the Polio epidemic
GP: Do remember what year that was?
MV: End of ‘40’s I guess, or mid-’40. Yeah.
GP: What would you say has been the most significant change in your life and in Salida and Chaffee county since you’ve been here?
MV: My life; getting married. I want a divorce. No. I don’t know. Ah, nothing I guess. I don’t know. Well the towns really changed a lot, you know, It’s a…….
GP: Tell me about it?
MV: Different stores, you know. There’s, ah there’s not much up town anymore, you know. It’s usually all art, art shops and stuff like that which there wasn’t that much of before. And what… ah, I don’t know, not very much, you know. There’s not any place to go dancing, you know, anymore. We used to have a lot of places, you know, Costello’s, and the Country Club, the Del Rio. And ah darn, there aren’t even very many beer parlors anymore, which is kind of strange.
GP: Well, is there anything else you’d like to tell me before we close this interview?
MV: Not that I can think of. I want to thank you for coming.
GP: Well, I thank you. It’s been very informative. So now I’ll go to Tony.
TV: If you ask me the same questions, I’ll tell you the same answers, I guess.
GP: Basically though I need to know about your family. Ah, your parents. Well, your name first, give me your full name.
TV: Anthony S. Vigil
GP: And when were you born?
TV: I was born May 15, 1928
GP: And your parents?
TV: And my father’s name was Ignacio M. Vigil. And he was, he was born in Espanola, New Mexico, ah. let’s see, on the 5th of June in 1889. And my mother’s name was Nesorita Maria Vigil and she was born in Espanola, December the 8th in 1893. And ah they were married in 1925, and they moved. My Dad was working in the railroad here, a transferor, they called it a transferor. The narrow gauge would bring in coal and stuff in from ah Crested Butte, I guess. And they, then they transferred it to the standard gauge from one car to the other. And he worked there for, until he died, I guess.
GP: Did he work, did he transfer from New Mexico to here, or did he……?
TV: No he just came here and got a job here. And, a lot of people from New Mexico used to come and work in the summer. And, and, no, in the winter. In the summer they’d go back, because they all had little farms or ranches and they’d go back and plant crops and everything and that Fall they’d come back and work at the railroad. And my Dad’s father, his name was Aaron Vigil. He ah, he lived with them, he, he came in and was living there. And we lived, I don’t know, we lived on West 1st Street some place, but I can’t remember. I was pretty small.
GP: How old were you when you lived there?
TV: I was a month old.
GP: Oh, well, no wonder you don’t remember.
TV: They lived over on, on West 1st. But, it was about 2 or 3, about the 300 block on West 1st. Or it was Sackett then, it was Sackett. And then ah they moved to this little house on 938 “F” Street.
MV: No, they did not.
TV: No, 938 “F”, 130 lower “I” . I’m on medication so don’t pay attention to everything I say. Well anyway, they moved to this house, they bought it, well they bought it for $300.00 from Sam Muto. I tell you that was a, they had a big grocery store. I don’t remember if you remember when Muto's store was there, do you? Well, anyway they bought it from them on, on “I” street and that’s where they arranged….. Ah, my Dad died when I was ten years old. And my, my brother was older than me, he was 3 years, 2 years older. And so my mother was left with ah with 3 girls younger than us and me and my brother. And ah she raised, she raised us there till, well we all lived there till ah, till we all went on our own.
GP: Ah, tell me again, that address. And then tell me the names of your brothers and sisters.
TV: Ah, we lived at 130 lower “I” Street. And ah I had a brother Joe, Joseph A. Vigil. I have the dates here. Ah, Joe A. Vigil, he was born ah, the 19th of December, 1926. And then there was me. And then I have a sister Flora, Flora Vigil, Cunningham now. And she was born the 22nd of June, in 1930. And a sister Mary, ah Mary D Vigil. She’s, Wilcox is her last name now. She was born the 22nd of August, 1933. And my youngest sister, Viola Maria Vigil. Mackey now. Mackey, yeah. She was born the 6th of December, 1935.
GP: How did your Mother provide for all of you?
TV: Well, she got a pension from the railroad. My Dad worked the railroad and she got a pension from there. And I think she got, ah what do you call it, Aid for Dependent Children. I think ah she got some money from there. Because she never, she never worked. Well, she had five kids, I guess that was work.
GP: Yeah, it sure was.
TV: But we weren’t ornery kids, we were nice kids.
GP: Did she expect you to do any chores around the house?
TV: Oh yeah. We got chores. And she, she believed in not sparing the rod. My Dad, I remember my Dad, course then I was pretty young, you know, when he died, I was eleven. But he never, he never, he was real easy going, you know. Like me, I guess. And, but my Mother she was a disciplinarian. Boy, she, you’d better tow the mark with her. Which I guess was good. And then we, we had, she always had a, not a huge but a pretty big garden. We always had to weed the garden, clean the yard and water the garden and all this. And that’s when there was, ah there was ditches running down every street. And ah and you’d water with ah, well they had to run the water, but usually when the waters came, the water came down, I don’t know, once a week, you’d dam up the ditch and then run into your yard and water all your…….
GP: Be like an irrigation?
TV: Yeah, irrigation, yeah. But every street almost had a, down on the West side of town, I don’t know about this side, but.
GP: You know when that changed? What year it was that change?
MV: Well, that was way after, no before we got married?
TV: So, it must’ve been ah, probably in the ‘40’s, yeah.
GP: Do you know where that water came from?
TV: From up on the mesa. A lot was from the, where’s the Harrington Ditch at, do you know? It came from up the mesa.
GP: Can you tell me a little bit about your parents – did, did they speak English.
TV: My Dad did. My Mother could understand it, but she didn’t, she didn’t speak English.
GP: So did you speak Spanish at home?
TV: Oh yeah. We had to if we wanted to know what was going on.
GP: Do you still speak Spanish?
TV: Yeah, oh yeah. I can speak pretty good Spanish.
GP: Ah did you see that as an advantage or a disadvantage?
TV: At the time I probably was, I thought it was a disadvantage. Now I think it’s an advantage. And at the time, well it was kinda embarrassing at the time, if you were a Mexican, you didn’t, you know, you didn’t talk Spanish or anything. Or, I remember being a kid, you’d ah, you’d take lunch and you’d usually took home-made bread, and you know, all the other kids had store bread and you’d hide to eat, because they’d, they’d make fun of you.
GP: Because you had home-made bread?
TV: And now how thats changed now. Now, they’d kill you for a tortilla.
GP: Describe your – well you said your Father was not much of a disciplinarian, but your Mother was. Did she spank you really hard?
TV: Yes. She had a belt and you got your five or six swats with it. And you, you didn’t just stand there and take it, you knelt down and she let you have it. Probably not enough to kill you, but you know, but you knew you’d been hit.
GP: You didn’t do that again?
TV: Oh, yeah. I didn’t learn.
GP: Was it any different, the discipline between you, your brother and sisters?
TV: I don’t remember the girls being, you know, being disciplined as much as me and my brother. Course we were a little bit more ornery. Yeah, doing a few more things we weren’t supposed to.
GP: Do you know, where were you born?
TV: In Espinola.
GP: And, at home or….?
TV: At home, or my grandmother’s. My Dad and my Mother they moved here and every time she was going to have a baby she’d go back home where her Mother was and stay there a month or two.
GP: Did her Mother deliver the baby?
TV: No, oh no. They had a doctor. A little country doctor used to delivered them. Dr. Spinosa was his name.
GP: Do you know why she went back to New Mexico to have the babies?
TV: Just to be with her Mother I guess.
GP: Try to help take care of her?
TV: Cause here, ah well, she knew people here, the Aragon’s, they came from the same part. But, you know, it wouldn’t be like being with your own family.
GP: Was family pretty important to your…. family pretty important?
TV: Yeah, it was.
GP: Ah, what was your first childhood memory in Salida?
TV: I remember my grandfather. I was, he died in 19….I was born in l928 and he died in 1930. I was about four years old. I remember him. A neat little store on the corner from where we lived and ah he’d go and he’d buy candy. And ah, across the street, where ah, I don’t know what’s there now. You know where ah Sandy Evans lives? Well, right next to that was a two-story apartment house and a cousin of mine lived there, ah him and his sister, and well the Mother, you know, and ah he’d always stop by there and give them a bag of candy. And I’d be standing outside by our house, and I say “how come he’s giving them”, I didn’t realize they were related, they were his grand kids too, you know. “How come he’s giving them kids candy?” he says “he’s my grandpa too”. But he’d always bring another bag too, but for a long time I didn’t understand what he was doing.
GP: Now, is that ah “L” street?
TV: “I” Street.
GP: “I” Street. So that would be like 1st and “I” near the alley then, that two story building would have been. And it was a hotel or apartments?
TV: No, it was apartments.
GP: Do you know who ran those?
TV: Ahm some Greek. And later, I don’t know, ah Theocatos. I don’t know if it was Dan or, or who ran it. But it was some Greek that owned it. “Shorty”, “Shorty”, what was “Shorty’s” name, that had that place down by the river? Well anyway, they ran at night. And I remember one time ah, I don’t know what, I was helping Mother do something in the house and we saw a lot of people going, going into the alley, coming by, running. I asked her, no, she asked me “I wonder what’s going on out there” and I said “I don’t know”. So I ran out to look and I saw this man laying on the street right in front of his apartment, you know. And ah, I went back in there and told her, and said “a drunk guy laying on the street”. And pretty soon the cops came, somebody had stabbed him, he was dead. It was ah, you know Jimmy Henry.
GP: Yes.
TV: His Dad.
GP: Oh really.
TV: His Dad did it. “Shorty”…. ah Mehos..or? He’s related to ah Dr. Mehos. Well, anyway he’s the one that stabbed him in a card game in that, in that apartment. And they got in a fight and he stabbed him, and, an he took off. And they caught him in Leadville finally and he, he went to prison for a few years.
GP: Did it kill this man, or did….?
TV: Mmm. Yeah, he ran out in the street and he died there. I thought he was a drunk layin out there.
GP: Well, that was a different thing than you’d not see everyday here.
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